This has been a week of interesting insights. A story long in the pipeline was published, after being called 'untouchable' and refused by several newspapers and magazines on the grounds of being 'too sensitive'. Posted on Pagalguy.com forums, it elicited several rather passionate reactions. Do take a look at them. I hear the story has reached the internal bulletin boards of all the IIMs and other major B-schools with discussion threads.
Negative, one-sided, malicious, not-presenting-the-complete-picture, unfair to the IIMs... I liked the adjectives. A couple of IIM students frantically called me to register their protest, saying the story would put off future students and prospective employers. "Teri hamse kyaa dushmani hai?"
First, I don't think a newspaper story can harm the IIMs' popularity and reputation. That's catastrophizing the issue. Second, I neither take myself nor my stories so seriously to believe that they will harm that big an institution. I am no expert on the IIMs. Third, I don't want the IIMs' reputation to be harmed, I am no IIM basher.
Fourth, for 40 years everybody, media included, has sung continuous paens about the IIMs. I guess nobody asked for the 'other side' then.
For me the most interesting part was that all negative facts about the IIMs were given to me by serving and former IIM Professors and Deans themselves with full consent to be officially quoted, except for one professor. One friend pointed out to me that they may have personal agendas for doing so. But in the end, the facts they gave me were each time backed up by actual evidence I independently fished out.
Given all the problems the IIMs ail with, would a truly passionate individual be able to survive in such an environment? Does the IIM culture respect passion, incredible pre-MBA backgrounds, leadership?
From what my IIM friends tell me, no matter what your age, experience or background, a 22-year-old fresher kid who happens to be your senior will rag you high-school style on your first day on campus. Birthday celebrations are about making the subject roll in mud and cake, get kicked and beaten by many, doing inventive 'fun' things with a batchmate of the opposite sex and more. They call it their culture. To the Common Sense it looks like humiliation. Maybe my senses are warped.
Any IIM student will tell you how group assignments are done. All the work is put on one guy while the others freak out or play games on the network. That's world class excellence.
And then is the placements thingy and the dirty childish games some IIMs play among themselves. IIM students reading this post would know what I'm talking about. Jobs become your complete life worth. Maturity goes out the window.
The IIMs should by all means go global. But will they survive global competition if their faculty are paid the same pathetic salaries? I hear that Wharton, Tuck, Stanford and Darden are setting up campuses in India in the next 10 years. Will the stagnant culture in IIMs stand that kind of world-class competition? I pray for IIM Shillong.
On the Pagalguy.com forums, I continuously see debates challenging the projected glory of the IIMs and people changing their perceptions 180 degree. One user calls the IIMs 'talent pickup joints'. Sooner or later, more people will write about it, more perceptions will change. You cannot fool all the people all the time.
I love the IIMs, they're my country's pride. But when I see the rot-like situation inside, I feel like doing more 'one-sided stories'.
Monday, February 13, 2006
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17 comments:
Hi
I hail from one of the hallowed grounds you mentioned in your article. Perhaps it might not be prudent on my part to comment like this, but most of the things mentioned in your article are true (however, some of the things did not have any ground)and in my opinion, people who aspire to get on these revered lands deserve to know the truth before they come in. And your article does that job.
I wish I could have done it but for "security" reasons, I am forced to make an anonymous post even here.
Bye
Hmm...I don't give a flying f for anonymity and everybody knows that I am in IIML. Personally, I have a few differences of opinion and a few places where I agree. Where I differ is actually in the minor niggling points like:
1. At least in IIML, every washroom has an automatic washing machine, so really, the point about juggling with washing clothes is not accurate, though it adds effect.
2. Just what is this infrastructure that you mention in hostels? Here, there is a Net connection and all the frills that go with the Intranet. Access to tons of stuff online from the room etc etc. What sucks in the maintenance of the network, which is worse than pathetic given that the Comp Centre staff, being govt employess can not be threatened and are therefore content to wallow in laziness and ineptitude. The student committee for Systems though does an admirable job...
3. Ragging does not exist, particularly for people who have work experience and the birthday 'celebration' that you mention is exaggerated. Grossly exaggerated as per what I see at least.
4. Group assignments are not done the way you mention. Long explanation, but take my word for it...and yes, Google is God...
What I agree on:
1. Shortage of good faculty with relevant industry experience is a HUGE problem.
2. Research work, while it does happen, is nowhere close to the level it should be at.
3. Good faculty moving back into industry is another reason for attrition (The last PGP Chair of IIML just moved a few months back).
4. Student diversity is not very high.
That said though consider the following:
1. Grants for research are abominably low and so are pay-scales when contrasted with global B-schools.
2. When it comes to student diversity, it's the education system at school level that should take the blame. From your early years, you are always told and convinced that the intelligent students do Engineering or medicine. That is what results in the cream going to these streams regardless of interest. How can you then fault them for being better when they attempt the CAT? They are the cream after all. Also, a lot of Engineers thanks to having entered the field because of IQ rather than interest, realise midway through Engg that this is not the field they want to work in and therefore they apply for an MBA to change course in their career path. Common sense will tell you that they are bound to be better. And the IIMs do try for diversity. But can you really fault them if all the CAT toppers are Engineers?
Personally, I think there is a lot that can improve, but you could perhaps concentrate on more pressing issues than the ones you have. These are but the tip of the iceberg that symbolize a far bigger malaise that ails our entire education system.
@anonymous: i think i have read your blog too. for the sake of respecting your anonymity, i will not reveal it here.
@Midnightmare: finally a substantial comment!
My humble request, please learn to READ and LISTEN before making a reply.
1. laundromats issue was only with IIM Calcutta and i think i have explicitly mentioned it. where have i written than L has no washing machines?
2. infrastructure: you answer your own question in the same paragraph. just what infrastructure am i talking about? keyword: maintenance. And I clearly mentioned that it was about older IIMs, L is not one. You're just not ready to read.
3. maybe you weren't ragged. are you speaking for everyone across the IIMs?
4. talk to anybody in A/K after a couple of drinks and you will know the truth.
The rest of your comment is the same as what I have already said.
This reminds me of this guy who calls me up and says, "Apurv! You are wrong in saying that the IIMs do not feature in a Global Top 100 ranking. In fact, we feature in all Asia-Pacific Top 100! So there, you are wrong!"
My intention is not to deride your article or say that you were wrong. I said at the outset that I spoke merely for L. I did read your post as well as the article before commenting and also noticed that you mentioned that the infrastructure of the 'older IIMs' needed upgradation. Having been to all of them, let me assure you that the facilities in terms of the systems exist everywhere and not just in L (unless you want wi-fi which of course is restricted to I and K). That is what made me ask just what you mean by infrastructure. Do you mean real infra or just the structure? If it is the latter, yes, they definitely do, but that is not what I call infrastructure. Pedantic perhaps, but I like getting that clear.
Again, I said that where I disagreed was on niggling and the more minor points. But then, the one bone of contention that no critic leaves out when criticizing and yet none has a solution for, is the 'diversity' issue. I believe that citing diversity as a problem is meaningless. It's not a problem but a symptom!
Ragging? Excuse me, but I think what you are referring to is the hoax. That is not ragging by any means and trust me, I don't need to speak to drunk IIM students to know about what does and what does not happen.
Finally, I am not criticizing you. By launching a broadside at me all you're doing is undermining your own credibility as a balanced and rational person.
interesting read! i am at a point in life where i find myself dissatisfied with what i am doing. not disgruntled. a lot of people told me to apply for a MBA and make a vertical shift.
it is exactly, though not wholly, for these reasons that i have decided not to go for one. most institutions dont have anything significant, in terms of marginal productivity, to offer. even colleges like harvard, though they make good selling points, have their own pitfalls. on a micro level they do have diversity, but on a macro level they tend to follow a very strict pattern. and you end up in an investment bank with a high profile job with lifelong stress and high bp as extra baggage.
in the end, just another degree with a juicy carrot dangling at the end is not going to cut it anymore.
@Midnightmare: i never said you were criticising me. but i did say that you were commenting without properly reading what i have written.
i always find it exasperating discussing this subject with IIM students because the first thing they do is run and absolve their particular IIM out of the issue even if i have said nothing about it. "at least in my IIM this doesn't happen." they refuse to rise above the 'my IIM, their IIM' thingy. maybe you didn't mean to do that, but your choice of words gave me that impression. i dont think you can talk about my credibility because you dont know me or about me that well.
anyhow, by infrastructure, i refer at the least to the condition of the hostels, buildings, technical facilities like the computer centre, general livability. and i specifically mentioned the older IIMs, i haven't been to L so i cannot and havent and wont speak about L. for eg, C/A hostels is what i'm talking about. condition of the buildings, bad maintenance, wear and tear, no upgradation... the buildings start to resemble a govt school.. more so in the case of C. it is one thing to merely 'have' infrastructure, another to have one of the class that the IIM Directors boast about to the media at the first chance. after the kind of grandeur projected outside about the IIMs, you EXPECT a lot. you anticipate 'world class'. but the reality, is a sad let down. that is what i mean. 'good infrastructure' for the IIMs is different from 'good infrastructure' for a 2nd or 3rd rung bschool.
minor points... excellence, is a sum of several such 'minor' things. who is denying that that entire education system is sick? the system has been and is being citicized by the media, me included and we'll continue doing so. but that is not an excuse to divert attention from talking about and seeking improvement in what you call minor issues, which are more easily correctible. of course, you dispute that my claim abt ragging and assignments isnt true at all, so maybe some IIM students have been telling me lies about their colleges and writing untruth on their hidden-identity blogs. maybe you are assuming that since you haven't heard of these things, they're not happening at all.
diversity. i dont agree with you about the engineering and medicine thingy. though unrelated but relevant, and i don't know where to find official statistics on the Internet on this, but BE/BTech+MBBS form less than 15 percent of undergraduate seats in India. It's the BA and BEd and BCom that's in the majority.
why do you have an exam like CAT, which fails to identify excellence in humanities for eg? does a student become 'not cream' just because he/she stopped studying Maths and Quant after class 10th? how is he/she going to clear a cutthroat quant exam over engineers after being out of touch with math for five years? with CAT, the IIMs set themselves up for low student diversity. when you do this over decades, we all program ourselves to believe that the cream lies only with engineers and MBBS.
the usual retort to this is that how can you have an alernative admissions system when there are 1.7 lakh applicants and that you need somethig like CAT to screen off the humongous number. you may have other arguments about this, which i'd like to know.
but think. Is there CAT because there are 1.7 lakh applicants or are there 1.7 lakh applicants because there is CAT? how many of them are serious applicants?
if you have a pen-pencil test as a majority admissions criteria, which johnny wouldn't like to try his luck? how many of them would really have broken hearts tomorrow if CAT were scrapped in favour of a little more subjective admissions process? and how tough would it be to have a subjective admissions process for say 40k to 50k applicants given that there are six IIMs... that's a lot of staff, people and resources!
but when all their energy is spen in finding a thousand justifications of continuing with CAT, who's making the effort to even consider a more all-encompassing admissions process? and that there is absolutely zero thought going into this is indicated by this year's CAT.. tougher quant and analytics.
at the end of the day, it is much more easier justifying the status quo than to be decisive about it being wrong and doing something about it. each time i talk to bschool powers-that-be, they make so much effort to find 100 reasons to justify why things have to be the way they are... bad faculty, old buildings, no research. it's pitiful. not one of them ever leaves that road to talk about about moving ahead with the times and the world. yes, you have some profs who do talk differently but they're never in the bschool management. in that sense, i admire IIM B because at least they tried to break out of the govt clutches, even if their pursuit was weird.
i guess there are no quick-fix and immediate solutions to these matters. but at least acknowledge the problem! no, not you IIM students. you guys don't have any say in the management or development of the IIMs anyway. but the IIM top brass, HRD ministry... at least show one small hopeful ray of intent!
@Rajat: who's forcing anyone to join an investment bank after harvard ? :D
Hi
Anonymous again. I do not write a blog. Period. Anyways, as much as I would want to be out in the open and vouch for the truth in your article, I simply cannot because as you mentioned, people from IIMs blamed you for trying to screw their placements. People from my IIM would make my survival hell-like if I disclosed who I am.
Infact, I can add to what you wrote:
1. For a major portion of the year, soul purpose of existence is centred around an ostentatious fest.
2. Reason for non diversity- We engineers are easier to get placed because we could have already had pretty lucrative jobs. So, the process is biased in our favor. And at times, I pity the redundancy of similar thoughts generated during a lecture. What else can you expect when everyone has done the same thing?
3. Faculty is worse than what you mentioned. Leave apart the lack of faculty, most of the ones who are here do not have basic knowledge of their subjects.
4. Free riding defines the work mode of most of the people.
5. Whatver might be said outside, teaching mode is still very theoretical and so is the evaluation during which students have to use their rote memory to get the coveted CGPA.
6. And Google remains the GOD..not only for students but for the profs also who simply copy questions for papers from the authors' websites.
PS:Some people might raise concerns about my anonymity saying that I am just mudslinging IIMs without having the courage to come out. For them: I STILL MAINTAIN THAT IIMs ARE THE BEST institutes of management in the country. It is just that they are not worthy of the recognition they get. And going by current rate, I do not think they will reach that state any time soon.
I am no IIM student, but I am considering, you could say even being forced, to consider becoming one in the future. They have so much brand value (for now) that leads to all this competition.
Your article has effectively managed to make me dread my future.
Hitting your blog after a longn time, and yeah read this story in our discussion board in campus. If you ahve time, read my reactions/additions here: http://govar.blogspot.com/2006/02/other-side-of-iims.html
I just read your blog and chanced upon the article about the IIMs. Obviously, there's no hiding it, I'm an IIM A student. But no, this is not a knee jerk reaction to your critique or an earnest plea to not spoil our 'good name' through this.
It is unfortunate that this article was NOT posted or discussed on our internal NB. But I don't know how that would have helped. What you write, the parts of it that are true and relevant to IIM A are things that we crib about but often can't help. I'd like to address a few points you've written about though.
One, as regards the question of rankings - I'm sure if you've even googled the topic you'd have found that the reason IIM A cannot feature in the world's lists is because its service offering is vastly different from that of foreign B Schools. It serves like any post graduate school and people join right after college. Hence average age of students, work experience, corresponding salaries on exit all are NOT comparable to International numbers. You can see why right?
But that is not the point of the comment. That error aside, it did contain several valid points. Students from my senior batch are attempting to set up a corpus for research in order to fund professors and world class research in IIM A. The problem with being regulated by the government is that professors get government salaries. Yet some professors teach here despite the low salaries out of a love for teaching or a variety of other reasons. I can totally sympathise with Prof. Govindrajan, however when he says that the experience of teaching PGPs is frustrating.
Since most of the class is just out of college, the value attached to one's time and money is lower than it would be if you've worked. People soon start cutting corners and taking shortcuts to just 'survive' rather than really learn. And often, the system is designed to elicit exactly such a response. We have the highest number of contact hours in the world amongst business programs. Do you think this would be a good thing?
Each hour of class time realistically requires 2 to 3 hours of preparation at the minimum before attending class. with 3 classes every day, how often can a student come back and work for nine hours just tearing apart cases in marketing/finance and operations before starting work on the numerous assignments and reports due the next day. How sustainable is this model over time? When more than 70% of the rewards accrue through end terms and mid terms (not in class participation etc) how do you think students would react? As the year progresses, people stop trying to be earnest and usually just give up. Quite a few, decide to do justice to fewer subjects. They pick two or three and study those well while 'free-riding' on the others.
In second year, they completely lose the 'enthu' and chill out almost the entire year. I can imagine how the profs must feel when nothing really matters to these people except placements. And can you blame students? Most came here to escape lives of software coding and have dollar dreams. Obviously, the placements matter.
About a few other points mentioned in the article :
Ragging - I think its ridiculous to assume 22 yr olds rag their juniors who are older and more experienced. It does not happen at IIMA. Obviously, there are initiation ceremonies in hostels - but nothing that will cause us to blush if covered by NDTV. Nothing remotely close to an engineering college, and definitely nothing close to the stuff chronicled in 5.someone.
Birthdays are celebrated with your classmates and dormates and with guests you invite but nothing of the sort you have mentioned. People do get 'bumps' or 'hooshes' on their birthday but that's it.
And group work, different groups work differently. Some groups live with a freerider, others will force them to do work. I don't think that is a function of IIMs or indeed generic to all of them. In IIMA, by and large, people split up into smaller groups and work on a subject. Considering we average 2-3 submissions a day on a packed week, this makes sense. However, the others don't play LAN games while one or two geeks work - that's more of an exception than the rule..
Disclaimer : all the above relates to IIMA except hooshing which is a uniquely bangalore term.
My experience with hostel facilities and maintenance at IIMA has been great with responsive staff.
I'm not saying the rest of your post is completely false - We do have issues with faculty quality and universal problems in engaging students. But just wanted to correct some gross misperceptions you have.
You're of course welcome to load up Wimwians with alcohol (outside Gujjuland obviously) and test these perceptions.
Also, I don't think the paranoia is justified. One article or even three is hardly going to 'ruin' our placements - hence I find it difficult to understand anon's paranoia.
That said, your article does address some very valid points. Before you taint all IIM students with the same brush, some are willing to engage in a discussion on how to make the system better.
And after reading your comments I realize, i'm also guilty of talking only about 'A'. However I've never even been to four out of the remaining five - can you really blame me? I'm not calling your article crap - just highlighting what I think is irrelevant in the context of choosing to come to A.
There are several reasons why one would choose to go to b-school (esp the IIMs). I won't list them here simply because if I was going to find every blog that highlighted deficiencies (valid or otherwise) in IIMs, that would be my full time job (and harldy pay me much)
You paint a morbid picture with a talented brush. That's great - cos obviously students who come in should have a clear idea of what they are getting into. However, just as no one should read a glossy brochure or the ET article on IIM A salaries, I don't think anyone should read your article as the gospel truth either.
I think even an earlier commenter was trying to get some healthy debate going. After all, we might not be paranoid, but we are proud of where we study! :)
As for placements being the key, yes to a large extent students are focused on being employed rather than employable - I think everyone in the system is trying to find a way to engage students better. It IS and issue that needs to be resolved.
Rest assured however that as a student, if you come to IIMA and WANT to learn, there will be enough and more avenues for you to do so. So from the student's point of view, it is not very significant.
And yes, bschool management should acknowledge these problems and work towards solving them. However, I don't know if they will be willing to acknowledge them in public simply because running down the IIMs is a favorite media pastime. I've interacted with quite a few media folks, and most don't want to see the good things about the school except for dollar salaries. They want juicy stories of reservations, scandals, bad managements and leaked papers.
Can you blame the management for being reticent?
As for anon, I would discount the views of people who post anonymously - while his/her views may be true - I find it difficult to respond to someone who hides behind the cloak of anonymity.
:)
I apologize for the previous deleted comments - bad editing on my part
And for the disjointed nature of the earlier post. What can I say, Its three am!
I guess I feel that your article touched a chord on some real issues and challenges that b-school students face. However, some parts of it were sensationalized for public consumptions.
And I disagree strongly with the ending claiming 'rot' in the system. An article highlighting everything gr8 about bschools is irrelevant here - but a few challenges doesn't turn a good school into a bad one - as good a 'story' as that might be.
WHOA! suze, i agree that you are very passionate about your institute.
now stop overreacting to newspaper articles at odd hours. stop being more loyal to institutions than the institutions themselves and go do some studying!
hey apurv
great article ... infact when i read it i was talking with my friends as to atleast someone has the guts to speak out now...ab kuch ho sakta hai.....
well i am from an IIM and i know most of the things which you have written about states the situation at my college. the worst of all is the shortage of faculty which is actually driving us nuts that we are disillusioned with brand IIM today.with our seniors professors leaving our college for better opportunities and also tell us " bear with a sub grade faculty and do self study of your own" what more can we expect.
infact after hearing so much about IIMs i was elated when i got into one but after a few months into my new life i realised its all in the name. its just the brand name thats keeping the IIMs up. infact have noticed other so called B-level B Schools have better faculty than us. if the govt/board of governors do not do anything about this issue soon the whole structure will topple like a pack of cards.
sometimes i wonder why wouldnt the IIMs be considered at the top? they obviously take in only the best brains in the country..mostly IITians and NITians...people who r competent enough to study or learn on their own..... well have they ever taken in any below average students and turned them into world class managers? i doubt so...
anyway just one mention... havent heard of any ragging in my college.. and well birthday celebrations do include cake smearing and painful bumps but its not so severe.
once again..thanks for putting it on paper what we want the world to know but well for ovbious reasons we do not have the freedom to even speak about it outside the walls of the institute...infact we r asked not to ...
ironic isnt it...
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